Kieren James-Lubin – Ep004

In this episode, join us as we talk with Kieren James-Lubin of BlockApps. The topics for discussion today are Ethereum, what it is, and how it can be used in blockchain.

Full Podcast Transcript

[00:00:04] Hello I’m Phill Claudio and you’re listening to the Hashed Health podcast. This show is dedicated to everything healthcare and blockchain related. Here at Hashed Health we’ve begun this incredible journey of developing blockchain solutions for healthcare. And we have the privilege of being able to talk with amazing people about this subject every single day. The goal of this show is to include you in these conversations. Join us as we host meetups, attend conferences and conduct interviews with our friends and other industry thought leaders. You can find more content like this as That’s W W W. H A S H E D health dot com or connect with us on Twitter @HashedHealth. Here we go. Joining us in the studio today is Kieren James-Lubin. Kieren is a mathematical physicist by training and is the CTO of BlockApps. BlockApps is a full stack technology platforms that allows users to blockchain applications on top of Ethereum Enterprise protocol. The company was founded in 2015 and it’s based in Brooklyn New York. So Kieren, I always, when someone comes in the studio the first question I asked them is you know in 15 seconds, 20 seconds you know what is blockchain? Oh 15 seconds it’s tough. Blockchain technology allows a group of transacting parties to agree on the order and contents of transactions without a central counterparty. That’s great. It’s fun we had. I’ve had some guys from Anbuchee, we had HyperLedger in here and that’s always fun to hear everyone’s quick you know quick summary.

[00:01:54] So Kieren in your own words what does BlockApps and what is your company’s relationship to the Ethereum Enterprise Alliance? Ethereum is many things. It’s a protocol. It’s something of a platform as well. And it’s a public blockchain with a native token. And there’s an ecosystem associated with it. So BlockApps implements that same protocol and we were the first company external to the Ethereum Foundation to produce a compliant implementation of the Ethereum protocol spec so for the listeners out there Ethereum is like HTTP, a little bit more intricate and complex but it’s something that anyone can go and produce an implementation of. Um, subsequently we have kind of taken the core Ethereum protocol in some cases enhanced it and built value add services and products on top of it basically for enterprise consumption. So we we kind of think of ourselves as Ethereum for enterprise. Gotcha. And so you know convert the skeptic you know why blockchain? I know a lot of people always say you can just use relational database. I know that’s a question we hear a lot, I know you hear all the time. So I’m the skeptic I come to you with that question. Convert me. Yeah yeah. It’s a good one and I think what the question conveys is sort of the level of market understanding on what the technology actually does. You know there aren’t that many public case studies to point to for successful implementations or in the way people are really thinking about the technology often as as a database replacement. And that’s not really where blockchains are best suited. I think of them more as a coordination tool.


[00:03:35] And they do coordinate on systems, really systems of record data. So you know financial services just settling trades, settling payments and other industries you know inventory management that sort of thing where multiple parties can collaborate and agree on a single source of truth. That’s where you want to look for the value of the technology itself. And so there are many use cases that people do deploy the technology and that that would be doable with the relational database. But then there’s a whole class that are not possible with a traditional relational database and that’s where you know our focus should be. But those can be harder to do from a business process kind of reengineering perspective so blunting the technology that allows you to collaborate with your partners even with your competitors to some degree if you’re a big enterprise and see savings and then top line benefit for doing so. But you have to sort of align your thinking about your business to collaboration and that’s kind of where we see a lot of the main adoption hurdles as well. Yeah we would we would agree with that so we’re in this transaction we’re trying to align competitors. Why wouldn’t I go to someone like IBM for that. I know they have they are a member of HyperLedger. They have they have their product out there. Why would I pick BlockApps over IBM. Yeah yeah that’s a great question. We get it sometimes. Another thing we get sometimes is hey IBM will do the POC for free will you do it for free? That sort of thing.


[00:05:10] You know I think what we’ve observed in companies is that IBM does have the ear of the CIO, the managing director and whatnot and then kind of below that. No one really is especially happy about dealing with IBM for longer for you know using more of their products having more of their their managed service people around for a longer period of time but they really are very good at reaching the kind of decision makers. And what I would say to that is you know it’s true. No one has gotten fired for buying IBM. But in terms of product maturity if you compare to something like Ethereum which has a public network version and the public network is sort of the harshest security environment known to man you know that that fabric doesn’t really do public network. It is important in that in the security analysis there are also sort of you know a year or two a year and a half behind in terms of R and D on that core product and you know they’re kind of I think a little bit less focused on you know what the developer community wants and working directly with the customers to define the future of the product roadmap. And so in contrast something like Ethereum has 20,000 developers, has many vendors like BlockApps who are you know able to provide production support for implementations of Ethereum and Ethereum derived code bases. And so you’re betting more on an ecosystem than than a single vendor which you know IBM would argue and say you know Fabric’s not ours. We have third party contributors to it. But but really I think the market thinks of it as an IBM Product.


[00:06:51] And so when you’re talking about vendor lock in and especially for systems that may cross multiple corporates you know the lifetime of the system is going to be 5 10 15 years and you really do want an option you know to pick between best of breed vendors with compatibility. You know at the protocol layer with application portability so that you know you’re not stuck forever with the same system. That’s a great point. Let’s talk about what differentiates BlockApps, you know you were talking about a chain adjacent databases and there is a lot of excitement around that. So I kind of want to bring that conversation to this podcast. What differentiates BlockApps in these chain adjacent databases? Yeah let me expand on that a little bit. And so I think we said before we do think of ourselves as Ethereum for enterprise and that manifests in a few ways. One that we’re a founding member of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance. We’re on the board. I personally sit on the technical working group as well. And the goal of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance is to produce a sort of an enhanced protocol specification starting from the public net and it aims to be compatible with the public net protocol to allow for certain kinds of enterprise use that were not natively baked into the protocol. So we are kind of you know helping to steer some of that work from a requirements perspective working with customers and also from implementing the spec in our software.


[00:08:31] And one of the requirements we always hear is reporting for instance so the blockchain really is a transactional database you know OLTP for the the enterprise architects out there who are listening and it’s not optimized for a certain sort of search reporting aggregation kind of workloads that you nevertheless must support to take an application to production. So one of the tools we’ve built as an integration tool essentially that will automatically translate your smart contracts into relational tables and sort of subscribe to the state changes of those smart contracts and keep the relational database downstream of the blockchain in sync with the live system of record data which is in the ledger itself. And so that means it’s very easy to create things like search screens. And to do reporting workloads like you know whereas all my inventory at a given point in time, you know what’s the settlement status of all my trades aggregated over you know this region or this product type or or you know things that you just need Sequel to do and everyone is use to using Sequel for. We can still support because we’ve built that integration. That’s great. Just a real quick, define for our listeners what the public net protocol is. Yes yes. Okay fair enough. So as I said before Ethereum is a protocol. It’s a community. It’s also a public blockchain with a native token. And the distinguishing factor of public blockchains is that they’re participatory. So on Bitcoin on a Ethereum anyone can download the software and connect to the network and download the history of the blockchain.


[00:10:19] And what this amounts to is downloading blocks and blocks are really bundles of transactions and transactions do things like move value from person to person and in Ethereum’s case they can do more complex operations. So Ethereum introduced the first implementation of the smart contract concept and what smart contracts do essentially is augment the blockchain technology with automatically enforceable business logic so a simple use case for a smart contract may be payment splitting or sort of dividend processing that sort of thing. So where on Bitcoin you’d have to make you know many separate transactions for a given disbursement on Ethereum and you could send a single transaction to a smart contract that would then split the value that went into that in amongst you know various parties. So so that’s an example of a very simple case in which you might find utility for smart contracts. When you have complex settlement processes especially in things like financial services the abstraction the smart contract transactions are very useful to carry out the … and life cycle of some sort of trade. So the public network has you know like Bitcoin you can download the whole history you can see all the previous transactions you can calculate all the ledger balances of of people on the system and in Ethereum’s case you also can deploy smart contracts you can invoke them to do the sort of things I’ve mentioned. So it’s a public ledger with value embedded in it. And has the the ability to execute complex business logic. That’s great. So you know you have this awesome position where you’re sitting this on the public net protocol technical advisory board. You hear your dad helped create Consensus you have a background in physics and mathematics what what excites you? I mean right now what’s going on with the most exciting thing out there in our space? Okay.


[00:12:34] Great question. Let me think of a few things so one. One trend that we’re seeing is the market is definitely maturing very rapidly. We do have production implementations fewer than we would like certainly we would like more. We have from Fortune 500’s down to startups in terms of size and production. But what we’re seeing is that the market is getting really serious about putting you know blockchain applications in production and there’s a lot of pressure both inside financial services and outside that to make that happen quickly. As you know we’ve seen quite public you know spending on blockchain projects that in reasonable sized checks and so people are starting to be asked, okay what did we get for that? You know and we’re not getting funding for next year possibly if we don’t have a path to production soon. And so that’s that’s a really positive thing. Assuming that you know we do our job and hit all the you know a very long list of projection checkboxes that a bank might have that an insurance company might have and we should see lots of systems coming online up kind of year’s end that really do power high value businesses. High value applications inside enterprises settling real you know high dollar value amounts in certain cases. So that’s pretty exciting. Production is here. We have systems in production and more are coming.


[00:14:07] Another interesting trend that we’re seeing is the emergence of sort of many industry specific subject matter experts I would consider Hashed Health among that group who are doing the really hard work of convincing a whole industry that you know in some cases you don’t get all of the value of blockchain technology if everyone is not at the table. You know you need to get the regulators involved you need the basically the whole value chain or supply chain and in many cases to be on the system for it to really pay the ROI that everyone is looking for and groups are getting quite organized at achieving that. And so I think that’s the other big piece of the production puzzle that is sort of hitting all the requirements from an I.T. perspective. But the bigger aspect is people need to come in who understand industries deeply and can coordinate the very complex process of getting in some cases partners in some cases competitors in some cases neutral parties to sit at the table for long enough to scope something out that would be valuable to everyone. And so we’re seeing that happen and you know we’re mostly involved as a technology provider so we’re in we’re not a deep industry subject matter experts in anything but technology to date. But we’re very excited to partner on these sorts of initiatives. So let’s talk about 10 years from now, how do we describe BlockApps? Describe your company. Oh man that’s a good question. I think I think we’re sort of an information infrastructure company at least for the, at least for five years or so. I think we’ll build some kind of hires in the stack applications that are sort of first party. We do prefer that third parties build the applications at this point.


[00:16:06] But I think we will be you know the pipes for the blockchain vision to come true not just on the public network but in enterprise and linking the enterprise to the public now. So who are some of you guy’s competitors? What are you? What are they doing and what are you doing to stay ahead of those guys? Yes this is a good question. So I would say you know as we see ourselves as an industry agnostic kind of platform play we do get compared to people like Chain, Exony, Symbiont who are all fairly singletrack and financial services. So I think it’s not quite exactly the same. There are lots of other vendors in the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance who could be considered competitors Monax maybe Parody, you know people who understand the core Ethereum protocol, well and often have made know enhancements to it for enterprise purposes. There are a number of those and you know in some cases even you know your large system integrator types would see us as competing for projects though we definitely do not want to compete with them in the long run and would rather they they do you know all the application developments and so on and will just help them with with our product but to date still I think there is some some mix of a friend or foe relationship with your large consultancies. But yeah, and I would say you know we compete head to head with lots of different people. I would say whenever we’re in an RFP process IBM is there if the customer is willing to tell us who’s participating. And you know IBM there’s sort of a vertically integrated into end solution. You know they have the cloud they have the professional services, they have a platform.


[00:18:02] They have industry subject matter experts and so there are quite formidable in that sense I would say sometimes you don’t want everything provided by a single vendor for you listeners out there. You know you could be stuck with them forever if you if you go forward. But I do. So we we often compete with IBM and yeah so. So that’s that’s pretty good coverage I guess of. So in terms of yes so the the sort of platform players around Ethereum are the closest in category. And they have sort of you know varying approaches as far as business model and so on. And then you know your your financial services specific players who build platforms I guess you could also count R3 are sort of near but not exactly competitors and. Yeah of course. IBM Yeah. So who this is kind of a fun question. What company outside of you know sort of your own and Hashed or Consensus, what company do you admire the most? And also when you think about who thought leader or individual in our space do you look up to the most? Company in our space that we admire the most and individual. Yeah. OK let me think about this for a second. Put you on the spot. Yes. Yes indeed. Can I give you a couple? Yeah. So I think R3 has pulled off the most impressive, complex sales effort that I’ve seen in quite some time I guess.


[00:19:43] So you know some of our call them competitors I forgot to mention Digital Asset also have pulled off like extremely intricate complex sales to raise a bunch of money raised from the people they’re going to sell the product to etc. And you know hats off for being able to pull that off. I think I’m impressed with IBM in terms of their focus and how quickly they’ve trained their enormous sales force on you know briefing their customers, their existing customers on what blockchain is and making sure that when a project comes out you know the RFP includes them. They’re everywhere. They’re very disciplined. I think as far as the large ISV’s it’s been quiet from Google Amazon. If you call Salesforce an ISV Salesforce has been pretty quiet. So leaving sort of Microsoft which has partnered with us very early on. So we’re the first sort of blockchain as a service provider on Azure and they’ve been great in terms of their open approach. They work with a lot of vendors. They don’t pick winners per se but you know it’s not necessarily what you would think of the Microsoft of old. They’ve actually partnered with many ISV’s and been a good

partner to us. We do business with them and they’ve been sort of also something of a mentor in terms of helping us on product roadmap especially aligned to their products production readiness and with the introductions to customers and that sort of thing. So that’s been quite helpful. I think there’s a lot of you know the strong competition in the space. Hard for me to pick a single. So who’s the individual and don’t say Metallic?


[00:21:35] Yeah the individual. Who is someone you’re at a conference and you’re you hear them talk like that that guy that guy? Let me think about that also. You know one thing I always tell people is like I literally go into conversations I’m but a humble business developer I get in a conversation like this person’s a factor, like X times a really large number smarter than I am. A lot of these people. Who is that guy for you? When you’re in the technical panel of the public net protocol who you gonna give a shout out to that you’re going to intellectually dueling with? That’s an interesting one. I would say so to that point actually I would like to call out the Bitcoin core devs for being, I think they are all super smart and I think they could learn from the sort of I would say Bitcoin compared to Ethereum, Ethereum is more kind of engineering minded like let’s iterate, let’s fix stuff. And Bitcoin they’re more like cryptographer like you know let’s never change anything that’s known to be not broken. New stuff is risky and that sort of thing. But they’re all super capable guys as well. And so if I were on a panel and we had to discuss some some technical issues I’d be a little bit worried if Greg Maxwell was there for instance. Obviously Metallics is you know on that level of brilliant as well and maybe more so. But I think maybe that part of the problem with Bitcoin is that those guys are all too smart and to reach agreements. But yes so I also always love a good Tim Swanson talk. Tim Swanson’s going to hit you with the fairly academic truth 100 percent of the time. I do really like when Brian speaks as well.


[00:23:27] Barrondorf so you know I’m struggling here lots of lots of very talented people in this space. We have such a fun industry to be in and a lot of eccentric people and a lot of really smart people are very kind people which is important when you’re in a nascent industry and we’re all neophytes ourselves. What challenges coming up in those weekly meetings that you guys have? Yeah that’s a good one. I think we have excellent developers. I think that’s not really our bottleneck right now. I’m a little bit, partially it’s the market is maturing rapidly but ultimately we’re we’re going to be a very valuable company is when our software is in production everywhere and it’s just especially in the, the larger the the enterprise the slower it is to kind of bring something inside the firewall. Anything new, really. We’ve had the kind of innovation labs build full products on top of our platform that, and then when it came time to say handed over to the I.T. operations they said I don’t know what a butchen is. If you put it on a relational database  then we’ll manage it for you. And so I think it’s, just a lot of it is market maturity and getting broad understanding and alignments among many stakeholders within large enterprises that this is a good thing it’s providing value and that we should really commit to it. And to that extent I would say some of our competitors are really helping there. IBM is doing a great job educating the market and getting people used to the idea that they are going to run blockchain systems in production. So in that sense they’re they’re certainly helping us beyond that.


[00:25:13] You know I would say you know we’re we’re a relatively small company we’re something like 17, 18 FTE and you know some some contractors mix part time and full time in addition to that and that also is something that’s tough to bet on for a really big company. We part of our work with the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance is to kind of answer that question. Like you’re not really betting on a single vendor, but betting on an ecosystem and that’s why it’s important to be compatible. But just in terms of our coverage from a sales perspective and you know a big bank wants you to have 25 support people for instance before they’ll consider running a production system on you. So it’s you know do we hire lots of people? Do we train a managed service provider to manage our product and production? That sort of thing. These are sort of the challenges especially with you know aligning those groups were not necessarily the easiest to work with for a large scale production deployment. It’s sort of just time really does is all of this takes. This is a good, this is a good, let’s talk about open innovation and you’ve said this a couple times today. Where you’re talking to a company and you need them to understand that we’re not 17 guys in a room right? We are 17 guys in a room sitting on the shoulders of how many developers are there in Ethereum? I mean how big is that? The number I said recently is 20,000 or more. Oh yeah. Those are, I have to check on exactly how that works. Let’s talk about that.


[00:26:55] That that open innovation in that community for a little while. Like let’s talk about. Yeah I’ll let you kind of run with that cause I think that’s a really good that’s a really good point. You kind of brought it up a couple times I really want wanted to kind of do a deep dive into that. Certainly. So one of the big issues is just talent you know enterprises don’t really want to go to a third party to build their applications. They like to pay them to build them in-house where they have the expertise and it’s just that right now they don’t let’s say there are 20,000 Ethereum developers. You know some mix of hobbyists and a few of them you know professional how many you know Java developers are there? Probably a million or more. So just the talent shortage aspect is still way better with Ethereum than anything else. How many you know Fabric developers are there? Being able to find in-house or even contractor expertise is a big benefit. Similarly you get much better tooling when you have a really large developer base. So developers will build tools themselves. They’ll also QA tools for you. And so if you have enough developers using something the tools will get hardened until the developers have… You’re not having to actually pay the developers? Exactly. So explain that to our audience. So explain to us how these tools get built in this open source community and how you directly leverage them. Yeah yeah. Okay. So for instance we know we’ve built a full implementation of the Ethereum stack, top to bottom the virtual machine the peer to peer network and so on.


[00:28:26] With some exceptions so we’re able to leverage the solidity compiler for instance which was built by the Ethereum Foundation and is tested by, you know thousands of developers really just out of the box. We’ve had you know small places where we do Syntex analysis to do the solidity smart contract language to augment it but we didn’t have to go write a solidity compiler and it’s innovation we can just kind of pull back into our product as as it’s going so that the large developer market is kind of creating requirements for solidity by using it. Solidity gets better we just are able to leverage that. And similarly for some of the kind of web API’s that you use to kind of connect to your your front end UI to the blockchain you know we support sort of different API styles. But again that gets sort of just gets QA from the general market and we’re able to just leverage existing tools that are that are out there without developing them ourselves essentially. So in a sense having a large open source community is kind of crowdfunding your product in some way and you know the parts that are ours and then you know we have some proprietary components like the relational database integrations that I’ve mentioned just benefit from the work of the crowd. Customers definitely like hearing that too, you know, potential customers love the fact that there are so many Ethereum developers. Yeah yeah yeah. And frankly you know BlockApps isn’t going anywhere.


[00:29:57] I was on a panel recently with Eric Piscini from Deloitte and he said you know for you small companies I mean you know, BlockApps that you’re not going away but for companies that might not exist in five years that’s still OK for a big enterprise because the products are standardized to a significant degree and you can find the talent to maintain the product even if the company were gone. Yeah. Yeah I think this is something that you know we at Hashed, we talk a lot about, open innovation right because you have open innovation on the developer side. Right? But then to even get to these business use cases you have open innovation on just ideation around a business case and blockchain it’s even just to talk about what the ROI is or how to justify the spin on the project. It’s gonna have it requires this multifaceted conversation. I think this understanding that you know how strong that community is because this developer community they’d benefit from the price of Ethereum correct? Yes, yes some of them definitely do and I know I going to go all the way there but yes. So in a sense Ethereum has a large set of incentivized stakeholders, but I’ll also say some of these sort of open source Ethereum enthusiasts are in very large enterprises and are kind of aligned with the mission and you know they may hear on high that you know that blockchain’s is not an initiative or will go with a different blockchain platform but can push for something Ethereum based internally and also those people are sometimes able to surface those requirements you’re talking about for an ROI analysis that you wouldn’t get without a large number of motivated people trying to help. Especially when you have a multi corporate situations, it’s very hard to quantify, the reduction in cost without the you know the multiple corporates actually talking.


[00:31:47] And so having lots of people inside these these organizations kind of bottom up who are fans of Ethereum can can be very helpful for advocating it for a larger production build. Yeah that’s great as the price goes up Kitty gets richer, more interested. Hopefully the developers don’t get distracted as the price goes up and sometimes you get a little coin in your pocket. Should go up just enough to get you excited but not enough that you’re going to retire. That’s right. That’s right. Enterprise Ethereum is now over 100 strong with a good mix of Fortune 500’s sort of mid-sized companies and startups actually mostly in the first and the last of those groups mostly startups and Fortune 500 type. So BlockApps is one of the original founding board members I believe which there are 12 of EEA and so we participate in membership confirmation and have a seat on the technical working group. So I personally am our technical working group representative and our CEO Victor Wang personally is our board representative. So for some reason you know it’s it’s a personal seat and not a company board seat. Not that you know it really matters and that you know are aligned in our interests. But so you know there are weekly calls for for both the technical working group and the board. You know decisions get made pretty quickly. And what we’re really working towards is the definition of Enterprise Ethereum and implementations of that that definition. So the definition will be a specification. It should be I think basically done in the initial form definitely by year’s end. As you know there’s a lot of market interest in the standardization and implementations at a product level of the standard.


[00:33:42] And you know as I as I mentioned before pressure to show something and pressure for Ethereum to be the horse that wins against the more kind of proprietary approaches of some of the vendors et cetera. So the participants in EEA really want the standard so that you know they can make it so that they can bet on the ecosystem that I’ve been talking about rather than say a really large vendor who you know will definitely be around in 50 years. Yes. What are the benefits of working on a public chain rather than working on a private chain that just might be a derivative that are it? Yep it’s a great question and it’s one of the main kind of tenets of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance to remain as close to the public chain as possible from a protocol perspective and also to contribute back to it. So ideally there’s a two way value flow between public chain innovation and in kind of private and permission chained innovation. And I think there’s several really good reasons to consider protocols that do have a public chain incarnation. One being that it’s a very stringent test of the security of the protocol and the code basis implementing it. So you know Ethereum, Bitcoin being over 10 billion in market cap it’s really very strong incentive for hackers out there to try to break the thing. I mean you know if you break it in certain ways you can quite literally collect tangible value immediately.


[00:35:18] And so there’s this big bull’s eye means that the protocol is hardened for security purposes really as well as possible and so if you don’t have this public chain incarnation like some of the permits and chain only products you have a little bit lower confidence in the security of the code basis in the core protocol itself. So another good reason to look at the public chain is that you know if if enough time passes and the price continues to increase financial institutions especially, but really anyone who accepts payments are going to be are likely have to engage with it on some level. I mean as an asset class crypto currency is definitely growing and you know Coinbase for instance they are regulated financial institution and they service it. And right now they’re one of the few. And I expect the traditional financial institutions will start to service the asset class as well and they will be the third a good reason that you know so there’s definitely value in the openness and that it’s participatory you can just join. And that’s sort of how the Internet is the Internet has its walled garden aspects as well. But when you have sort of barriers to innovation in terms of who can participate in what and that sort of thing and you know very heavy governance procedures you can lose developer mindshare for one but also just the benefit of any time you have to ask you slow things down basically. And so the permissionless aspect is useful from an innovation perspective. And so we may see that public same protocols actually support all the privacy all the throughput requirements that the permissioned and private chain protocols have kind of forked off slightly to hit those requirements. And if they do have those properties then I can imagine lots and lots of commerce moving to the public chain.


[00:37:23] Finally I would say that public chains are useful for communication between kind of consortium and private chains in which he may have an industry consortium that sort of fenced off but in another industry consortium say that that might be fenced off. But maybe this public reference data or actual value transfers to occur that could happen on the public chain that are less sort of sensitive from a personal data perspective for instance. And so it could be bridge kind of a universal communication layer.

Awesome. Well guys I think, I think we’re good. I appreciate you guys coming to Nashville. We appreciate you speaking at our meet-up and it’s been great having you in the studio and look forward to getting the conversation worked with you guys.

Thanks very much. Great to be here. Thanks, you’ve been listening to the Hashed podcast presented by Hashed Health. Find more content like this at or come to our next meet-up and join our growing community of blockchain professionals and enthusiasts. Learn more at Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.

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